Aired September 29, 2001 - 9 pm ET
Tonight: Seeking meaning; in the aftermath of September 11, can faith heal
shattered hearts and lives? Joining us from San Diego Deepak Chopra, spiritual
adviser, best-selling author of "How to Know God." In at Boston, Rabbi Harold
Kushner, best-selling author of "Living a Life That Matters." In Atlanta, Bruce
Wilkinson, best-selling author of "The Prayer of Jabez" and founder of the Walk
Through the Bible Ministries. In Los Angeles Dr. Hathout, a scholar of Islam and
senior adviser to the Muslim Public Affairs Council. And with him the pastor of
the Grace Community Church, John MacArthur, also president of the Masters
College and Seminary......five prominent gentlemen will discuss a question being
asked by a lot of people: Where was God?
In San Diego, Deepak Chopra, the best-selling author. His books include, "How to
Know God"; CEO and founder of the Chopra Center for Well-Being.
In Boston, the famed Rabbi Harold Kushner, the best-selling author. His newest
is "Living a Life That Matters"; and his famous book, of course, "When Bad
Things Happen to Good People."
In Atlanta, Bruce Wilkinson, best-selling author of "The Prayer of Jabez." It's
been the No. 1 best-seller for months. He also wrote "Secrets of the Vine." He's
founder and president of Walk Through the Bible Ministries.
Here in Los Angeles is Dr. Maher Hathout, scholar of Islam, senior adviser at
the Muslim Public Affairs Council.
And John MacArthur, pastor of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, president of
the Masters College and Seminary; best-selling author, and syndicated radio
broadcaster.
All right, if the overall topic of this group being is: "Where was God?",
where was he Deepak?
DEEPAK CHOPRA: God is infinity creativity, infinite love, infinite
compassion. In fact, those are the qualities attributed to him in the holy Koran
and in Islam also. God is not the problem, Larry. It's our ignorance about our
inseparability with each other and our tribal instinct. We've sacrificed God.
We've made a brand name out of God, and we've gone to war. All the racism, all
the hatred, all the prejudice, all the bigotry, all the ethnocentrism, all the
plundering of the world is in the name of God, but the name of God is not "God."
That's our essential problem.
KING: Rabbi, if God is omnipotent, he could have prevented this,
could he not?
RABBI HAROLD KUSHNER: No, because I think at the very outset God gave
human beings the freedom to chose between being good people and being bad
people. And at tremendous risk to God's creatures and God's creation, he will
not take that power away from us, that freedom, because we stop being human
beings if he does. I don't find God in that terrible accident -- in that act of
cruelty. I find God in the courage of firemen and police. I will continue to
find God in the willingness of the survivors to rebuild their lives. Remember,
Larry, God's promise was not that life would be fair, God's promise was that
even if life is unfair we would not have to face it alone, for he will be with
us in the valley of the shadow.
KING: Bruce, didn't you at least for a moment say to yourself: I
question my faith?
BRUCE WILKINSON: I did not find myself questioning my faith. I began to
put myself in God's shoes and thought to myself, how would I feel if I was up
there next to God with the people that are there, the angels that are there;
what would I see on God's -- you know, his personality. You remember in the Old
Testament when the great flood occurred, according to the Torah of Scriptures,
it says that God was grieved in his heart because violence filled the earth. And
I really believe what God felt at that moment is tremendous grief. It was so bad
at the beginning that he said I'm sorry that I made man; this isn't what I had
to mind for man. I can't imagine the grief that he must have felt.
KING: Doctor Hathout, when we read and learn of those letters
yesterday -- the letter written by one of the people who caused this horror --
and he's a Muslim -- and he proclaims a love -- that he was going to God. How do
you balance that?
DR. MAHER HATHOUT, (SCHOLAR OF ISLAM): Well, everybody can proclaim
whatever he or she might want. But the reality of the matter is God does not
condone or accept that his creature could be destroyed in this way, and does not
accept cruelty. God is mercy and is love.
KING: So where were they getting that from?
HATHOUT: Well, look at how many people kill and get killed in the name of
democracy or liberty or.
KING: Or Christianity.
HATHOUT: Or Christianity or patriotism, or what have you. So people have
that twisted behavior sometimes.
KING: Nowhere in the Koran does it say: You should kill to go to heaven?
HATHOUT: Absolutely not.
KING: John, do you question it? I mean, do you question whether
there is a God?
JOHN MACARTHUR, (PASTOR, GRACE COMMUNITY CHURCH): I don't question
whether there is a God. I don't even question what God chooses to allow. It's
not a matter of my opinion. As a Bible teacher and one who believes that the
Bible is the authoritative Word of God, Scripture tells us that God is
absolutely sovereign; that everything that occurs, occurs within the framework
of his purpose.
That is not to say that God creates evil. The Bible says He does not, nor does
He do evil, nor does he tempt anybody to do evil. But evil exists. It's
everywhere. And God can overrule that for his own purpose. The question is, what
is his purpose in this? And that's a big question.
KING: And I want to pick up on that.
Our panel resumes. We'll reduce them and they'll be our discussion the rest of
the way on this program. We'll include some phone calls. We're discussing God
and June 11 -- and September 11.
KING: We are back on LARRY KING LIVE, we will reintroduce the panel.
We'll include a lot of your phone calls. So many people are interested in this,
and questioning it probably. In San Diego is Deepak Chopra, in Boston is Rabbi
Harold Kushner, in Atlanta is Bruce Wilkinson, in Los Angeles is Dr. Maher
Hathout, and in Los Angeles is John MacArthur. And we go to Tucson, Arizona.
Hello.
CALLER: Larry, I wanted to ask your panel, if these hijackers are in
heaven or hell right now?
KING: Where do you think they are, Dr. Hathout?
HATHOUT: Well, we never second-guess God. What we can say is God told us
in the Koran that those who kill innocent people will be punished.
KING: Punished?
HATHOUT: Absolutely.
KING: What do you believe, John?
MACARTHUR: Well, I believe there's only one way to go to heaven, and
that's through faith in Jesus Christ. And obviously, their faith was not in
Christ, and that's evident not because I know their religious background, but
because if you know Christ your life is transformed and you don't do things like
that.
KING: Rabbi Kushner, where are they?
KUSHNER: Well, I feel a little bit excluded by that last statement, but
you know, I have got problems with hell. I have trouble believing in a God who
would send people to eternal damnation. I might be prepared to do it, I rather
think God is beyond that. I think they're not in heaven, I think heaven is
reserved for people who have lived a good life. I think they have simply
disappeared. They had dreams of an afterlife, they had dreams of pleasure and
praise and being welcomed and all that, and I don't think they are anywhere.
They are nonexistent, and that's the best thing that can happen to them.
KING: Bruce? Bruce Wilkinson, what do you think?
WILKINSON: I feel that they stand before the Lord, God himself, and they
have to answer to Him personally about what they've done in their life, number
one; and number two, how they had planned on handling the problem of their sin,
of their disobedience to Him.
The whole Bible is very clear, that there's a penalty to sin, and it's not by
them dying for their sin, but it is the death penalty, the death penalty for
their sin. And Jesus Christ is the one person that came up to the bat and said,
"I will take care of dying for men's sin." Therefore, the question is, how are
they going to deal with the issue of their own personal sin when they stand
before God and face the death penalty for their choices.
KING: Deepak Chopra, where do you think they are?
CHOPRA: Larry, I don't know where they are, only God knows where they
are. But I have a problem with some of your panelists, because I don't think
Christ was a Christian, I don't think Buddha was a Buddhist, and I don't think
that Mohammed was a Mohammedan. I think it's just that kind of thing that says
only the way of Jesus is right, then the others say only the way of Mohammed is
right, only the way of Buddha is right, only the way of Krishna is right. We
have sacrificed a universal being and created a tribal chief with our gods, and
that's the problem.
KING: Would you like to counter that, John?
MACARTHUR: Yeah, I just don't think, all due respect, that Deepak is the
authority on that. I don't think Rabbi Kushner is the authority either.
KING: Nor are you.
MACARTHUR: I don't think I'm the authority. Where are you going to go?
You have to go to an authoritative book.
KING: And that is?
MACARTHUR: The Bible.
KING: Which Bible? The Koran?
MACARTHUR: The Holy Bible.
KING: The Koran is a bible. He believes in the Koran as much as...
MACARTHUR: I know he does. I know he believes in the Koran. I don't
believe in the Koran. I don't believe that is this the holy book written by God.
KING: So, why is your belief better than his belief? It's different, but
why...
MACARTHUR: It's not a question of comparing people's beliefs. It's a
question of what is the authority, and the word of God has -- the Bible has
stood the test of time and been affirmed ever since Moses as a divine word from
God.
KING: So, any person who doesn't believe in Christ is doomed to hell,
whether he has lived a wonderful life?
MACARTHUR: This is what the Bible teaches.
KING: Anaheim, hello.
CALLER: I've been a follower of Deepak Chopra's teachings for many years,
and I've woven a lot of them into my own life. One of them is practicing
forgiveness. And I've heard very little about actually people practicing
forgiveness at this time from our spiritual leaders, and I wondered if you could
comment about that.
KING: OK, I know Deepak preaches it. Let's go around the horn. First,
with Rabbi Kushner, does your religion -- do you forgive these terrorists?
KUSHNER: It's not my job to forgive, because I was not injured by them.
Only the people who have been hurt by them can forgive.
Yes, I can contemplate forgiving those hijackers if you understand forgiveness
not to mean excusing or condoning, but to mean transcending and letting go,
saying what you did was so despicable I'm not going to rent you space in my head
anymore, I'm not going permit you to scare me into changing my life's ways, get
out of my mind. That is the only kind of forgiveness I can hold out for them.
KING: Dr. Hathout, what does your faith say?
HATHOUT: I agree very much with what the rabbi said, but there is a
concept of justice. Justice has to be ratified. Life without justice is
intolerable, and it opens all the ways for extremes and for taking the revenge
and taking the law in your hands, et cetera. There must be a just retribution.
If God wants to forgive people, of course he can. He is the merciful and
forgiving.
KING: Bruce, as a Christian, do you forgive?
WILKINSON: Yes. We are commanded to forgive, because Christ forgave us for our
sins. Forgiveness is a gift that you give someone else. They don't have to
deserve it. They don't even have to ask for it, and they don't even have to
change their behavior. I can give another person a gift of forgiveness and not
hold them against that act, but release it. And to forgive them means not to
hold that against them.
That doesn't mean, however, that there's no justice that is a consequence for
the negative behavior in their life, and I would agree with the previous
comments about the difference of forgiving and just penalty.
KING: John.
MACARTHUR: Christianity is forgiveness. I mean, that's the essence of
the Christian faith.
KING: So, you do forgive them?
MACARTHUR: Oh, absolutely, and I can do that because I need forgiveness.
But God is on another level. God, who is perfectly holy, will bring about a holy
justice in the case of those individuals.
KING: He doesn't have to forgive, you do.
MACARTHUR: Well, he has given a condition by which he will forgive.
KING: And Deepak, what do you believe about forgiveness?
CHOPRA: I think I agree with the rabbi. I think also that justice and
forgiveness are ultimately God's prerogative, and I keep listening to everybody
referring to God as a he, which gives him a male sexist orientation, and I think
God is the absolute power of the universe and is neither a he nor a she.
The best we can do in this situation is to have -- make sure that every thought
of ours, every word of ours, every act of ours has a nurturing effect on our
loved ones, and that we extend that love to our extended family, and ultimately
all of humanity.
KING: You don't agree with that?
MACARTHUR: I just want to go back to your original question and clear the
air on something. Seven thousand people died that day in that Holocaust. I did a
little checking this last week, 7,000 people die every day in America. That's
like having 366 days this year, that's all.
If you're going to ask, why didn't God stop that, you have a huge question. Is
God going to stop all dying? We feel more comfortable when people die one at a
time than when they die in groups of hundreds or thousands, obviously. The
bigger question is, why do people die? And if you're going to die, how can you
be prepared for the inevitability of that death?
And Jesus said -- Jesus was asked by some people one day, they said, "a tower in
Siloam fell on 18 people and killed them," and they said to Jesus, "were they
worse than everybody else?" And he said, "you better repent, or you'll likewise
perish."
It was a severe mercy. It was God's way of saying, look, you have grace, you
enjoy life, but in the end there's death, and you need to be ready for that.
KING: Burlington, Vermont, hello.
CALLER: My question is, is it an arrogant question to ask now, 7,000
people is horrific, but as the previous man stated, you know, people are dying
every day in terrible injustices all over the world.
KING: Well, all right, Rabbi Kushner, is all death wrong?
KUSHNER: Death is inevitable. The question is, was death preventable?
These were people who didn't have to die, these were people who had a lot to
look forward to, who should have lived many more years.
I would say if the hijackers ended up killing only one person, if somehow they
had been stopped after they murdered the flight attendant on American Airlines
flight 11, still what they did was absolutely inexcusable and absolutely
unforgivable at that level. So the death of any individual is a tragedy.
KING: Dr. Hathout wanted to add something to what the rabbi said.
HATHOUT: I'd like to build on what the rabbi said, because the concept in
the Jewish tradition is like in Islam, like in the Koran: If you waste one life
like you wasted the life of humanity, if you save one life like you save all
humanity.
I don't like to see the trivialization of what happened by saying people die
every day. And we are not talking about death. We are talking about a crime
committed against innocent people. This is what we are talking about.
KING: Deepak, we learned that two women hijacking victims on different
planes...Ruth McCourt on United Airlines 175, Page Hackel on American flight 11
were going to California from Boston for a vacation. They were planning to spend
time at your center. Any reaction to that?
CHOPRA: They were coming to spend time at the center and do a course with
Debby Ford (ph), and I felt deep anguish when I heard that, and it was really a
very personal thing for me after that. And I could sense the anguish that the
family, the mother was feeling, and I believe they're still in touch with their
grief right now and don't want to talk too anyone. And I think...
KING: Do you know them? Did you know them?
CHOPRA: I don't know them personally. I didn't know them personally, only
I found out through the news that they were coming to the center.
KING: Savannah, Georgia, hello.
CALLER: Good evening, Larry. The Bush administration is engaged in a
diplomatic response to terrorism, perhaps a military response. What about the
idea of a spiritual response, what about trying to get to the terrorists by
reeducating them? What about a worldwide congregation of all faiths to try to
seek common ground among the faiths and ways to propose peace among all the
different religions?
KING: Rabbi Kushner, what do you make of that idea?
KUSHNER: It's hard to disagree with, and it sounds a little bit
visionary. Worth a try. I would be immensely gratified if it did some good.
What worries me is that these are people who think they have a strong religious
faith, and they believe, erroneously I'm sure, that their religious faith gives
them permission to do what they did two and a half weeks ago. I don't know how
you're going to talk them out of that.
KING: John.
MACARTHUR: Well, I think what happened, again, was such a horrible thing,
and I don't want to minimize that at all. But the solution is not superficial.
It's not political and it's not social, it's the heart. There has to be a
transformation in the heart.
KING: So, what about a conference of clerics, maybe going to Afghanistan?
MACARTHUR: Well, if the right people go preaching the right message.
KING: Then who chooses? Who decides what's right?
MACARTHUR: Well, you know, again, I'm back to the source that I believe,
you know, that Jesus Christ alone is the Savior. There's no salvation in any
other, and he's the answer.
KING: Bruce, what do you make of the idea?
WILKINSON: I think it's a great idea, and if people would come together
and talk to each other and understand each other, there could perhaps be a
starting place for some peace. But as I evaluate the terrorists and their
agenda, I think that's the last thing they want to do is to sit down and talk
about peace.
KING: Deepak, you think -- we are able to talk to them?
CHOPRA: I think, Larry, in the long term, the spiritual solution is
the only solution. I think what we need to do as a nation, we have to recognize
that as Americans we are the most loving, compassionate people in the world and
the most giving, but we are also unaware, we do not know the problems of the
world. We do not feel the anguish and suffering of the world. And it's partly
because of our lack of awareness. Until this major catastrophe occurred, our
whole nation was obsessed with Gary Condit's behavior or Anne Heche's childhood.
And as long as we are a nation that's caught up in the melodrama of triviality
and do not feel the anguish of the world, then there will be a deep rift in our
collective soul.
KING: Dr. Hathout, you want to...
HATHOUT: I like the idea, but practically if you want to build a
coalition of faiths, I think we will have a big trouble if part of the coalition
says, "unless you accept my Bible and my Jesus Christ and you take this way, you
are discounted." What kind of coalition is this? I mean, we have to transcend
that to the oneness of God, the sanctity of life, the oneness of the human
family and to try to deal on that basis.
KING: Very hard for the deep believer to give up his belief, though.
HATHOUT: No, he doesn't have to give it up, but we have to understand
that when God created us, deliberately he made us different, and we seek
different ways to him, and everybody is entitled and is glorified enough to try
to find God.
KING: Got another call. Tucson, hello.
CALLER: You got these guests on tonight, and they're all of different
faiths, I guess, and they talk about the extremists having problems. We all talk
about it, they can't agree on anything. But these fellows can't agree on who the
authority is. The authority's name is God, and I think we have to look at it in
a more broad sense, who God is. He's God, you know.
KING: Well, that's what Deepak said, but we all have different versions.
The Jews see God as what, rabbi?
KUSHNER: Well, the first thing I want to say, Larry, is that I hope
that you and your viewers have noticed the amount of agreement and overlap
between your Jewish and your Muslim panelists. For me, that's the most
encouraging thing I have heard in the last 18 days.
Who is God? God is the spirit that created the world and has been communicating
with human beings to teach us how to live and how to use our freedom in the
world, And if we don't listen to him and if we don't learn from our experience,
we are all in trouble.
KING: Bruce, who is he?
WILKINSON: He's a supreme being and the creator of all living beings.
And...
KING: He's not Christian, is he?
WILKINSON: No, he's the creator of all people.
KING: So he created the agnostic and he created the atheist?
WILKINSON: He created all people, and people have to choose, Larry, what
they're going to believe about God and how they're going to behave. And I think
that's one of the most exciting parts of what's taking place as a result of the
tragedy. I just came back from Washington and had a number of meetings, and I
find people everywhere asking the deeper questions, asking questions about their
own purpose, about why they're here, what they're trying to accomplish, what
they're giving their life to. And even deeper questions about God and what
happens to me if I was in the bottom of that Trade Center and it fell, what
would have happened to me?
And people I think have been shaken up, not only from the tragedy but the
results of their thoughts after the tragedy, and I think there's a wonderful
window here for our country to perhaps take a deeper look at the purpose of
life.
KING: John, couldn't you agree with that?
MACARTHUR: Yes. Back to the question about God -- again, I hear all these
responses, but we have to go back to some authority outside of ourselves. I
mean, I can't define God for the universe from starting with me. God in the
scripture is the creator and sustainer of the universe, he's the sovereign over
everything...who was incarnated in Jesus Christ, came down and died on a cross
to provide atonement, so that the sins of those who repent were paid for in
full, and therefore heaven was open to them. That is God revealed in scripture.
KING: A 2-year-old baby at the bottom of the center, the World Trade
Center?
MACARTHUR: Instant heaven.
KING: Wasn't a sinner.
MACARTHUR: Instant heaven.
KING: And how do you see him, Dr. Hathout?
HATHOUT: Everything John said, except for the incarnation part, because
we don't believe in that. We believe that God is way beyond being imprisoned in
space or in place. He is beyond perception, beyond concretization.
KING: Is Mohammed to you what Christ is to him?
HATHOUT: No. To him, Christ is God. To me, Christ is a messenger of God.
KING: As was Mohammed.
HATHOUT: Like Mohammed.
KING: A messenger.
HATHOUT: A messenger of God.
KING: And Deepak, you began the program by saying God is everything?
CHOPRA: God is love.
KING: ... mathematically, I could say everything is nothing.
CHOPRA: God is love, God is the source of all that was, all that is, all
that will be. Let's not give God a brand name.
KING: Mobile, Alabama, quickly, hello.
CALLER: My question is this: How can we ask as Americans where is God
when we have taken him out of our schools, we have taken him out of the
courtroom, we are not allowed to pray in school. How can we as Americans in our
justice system and America say, where is God when we have thrown God out?
KING: John?
MACARTHUR: Oh, he's there. Believe me, he is there. God is omnipresent.
He's there. We may not want to acknowledge him, but he is the unseen power in
the universe. Everything fits within his ultimate purpose, and his ultimate
purpose is as a Savior.
And these things happen -- I think death happens as a wakeup call for us to
prepare for that, and then we see the weeping God through Jeremiah, the weeping
God through Jesus, who says, "why don't you come to me so that your sins can be
forgiven?" When you see a thing like this happen, that's the wakeup call.
KING: There's no one on this panel who questions his faith, his own
faith? None?
HATHOUT: No, I don't.
KING: No. Rabbi?
KUSHNER: No, I don't. By the way, in response to the Mobile question, I
would say that as long as schools are dedicated to the life of the mind and as
long as courts are dedicated to justice without fear or favor, God is in the
schools and God is in the courts.
KING: We are out of time. Deepak Chopra, Rabbi Harold Kushner, Bruce
Wilkinson, Dr. Maher Hathout and John MacArthur, we thank you all very much for
an illuminated hour.
This transcript was edited from the original transcript of the show due to
additional interviews and breaks that did not concern the subject at hand.
For a complete transcript of the entire Larry King Live show on Sep 29th, 2001,
go to:
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/29/lklw.00.html
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