Panel of "Christians" Speak Out on War With Iraq
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, what would Jesus do about war with Iraq? Here to debate that issue:
Conservative Christian leader Bob Jones II, president Bob
Jones University; Max Lucado, minister of the Oak Hills Church of Christ in San
Antonio; Father Michael Manning, Roman Catholic priest, host of the
international TV show "The Word in the World;" Pastor John MacArthur of the
Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, also a syndicated radio host;
And Bishop Melvin Talbert, ecumenical officer of the United Methodist Church.
President Bush is a Methodist, but Bishop Talbert, who went to Iraq a few months
ago, opposes the war.
We will be entertaining your calls later on this important edition of LARRY KING
LIVE with prominent Christian clergymen discussing it. We'll start with Dr.
Jones. He's in Saginaw, Michigan tonight. The president of Bob Jones University
in Greenville, South Carolina. What would Jesus say?
DR. BOB JONES III, FOUNDER, BOB JONES UNIVERSITY: Well, the Lord met a
centurion once, a Roman centurion in his earthly ministry, and he never rebuked
the centurion at all for being a warrior. The Lord said that the world will
always know wars and the rumors of wars right up until the end times. The Lord
knows that there's war in the world because there's war in men's hearts and
hearts that are full of sin are always going to be full of war. The Bible says,
"You lust and you have not. You kill and desire to have because you have not and
you ask not."
KING: Does that mean Dr. Jones, that because there always is war Christian
leaders will support war?
JONES: War's a part of man's sin nature. The sinful nature of man makes a
sinful world and war is going to be a part of this world right up until the very
end. And it's not a matter of Christians supporting war. The Christians support
peace. And in order to have a just peace, sometimes you have to have a war.
We've been at war in America since 9/11 and there's been no peace in this nation
and until those who are the responsible parties and the participants and the
supporters of terrorism in the world, the world's not going to know any peace.
And the war in Iraq will help to do a lot to address the source of a lot of this
terrorism. And I don't see how anybody who loves peace could really be against
this war and those who did destroy peace.
KING: Father Manning, what would Christ say?
FATHER MICHAEL MANNING, HOST, "WORD IN THE WORLD": I'm very strong
against that. When I experienced Jesus in the Bible I experienced a man, for
example, who had a Greek friend in John the Baptist, who was killed by a tyrant.
He was executed at a birthday party. He knew what Roman subjugation was, and in
the midst of all of that and all of the terrible things, what did he do? He
brings in Simon the Zealot who was a terrorist as one of his apostles. He also
brings in Matthew who was a tax collector with Herod who was in cahoots with the
Romans. He's bringing in all of these diverse people, bringing unity, bringing
peace and bringing understanding. And his response was not, OK, let's go
get him. Although many of his followers wanted him to be that King David that
was going to be that great warrior to overcome things and he resisted that.
KING: You think he would be opposed?
MANNING: Oh, he would be very much. Peace, let's move with peace. Let's
talk, let's move and move with strong force to a peaceful resolution.
KING: Max Lucado, what do you think Christ would have said today?
MAX LUCADO, AUTHOR, "HE CHOSE THE NAILS": I think the Father's making a
good point there. And I think that war is always something to be avoided. It's
always dreadful. It's always awful. It leaves a scar on the people. It leaves a
scar on the country. The only time that it seems to me that any type of
international combat is justifiable from a scriptural point of view would be
when innocent people need to be protected. And this is the assignment, I
perceive, given by God to the government. And if the government perceives that
innocent people are not being protected and that evil must be punished to
protect them, that's the only justifiable case.
KING: So you would see going to war in Iraq as, under your concept,
justifiable?
LUCADO: I would see that this is a decision that really can only be made
by those in authority and we have to trust their decision and rely on their
character and pray earnestly for them that God would lead them in the right
direction.
KING: Do you have a personal opinion?
LUCADO: I do have a personal opinion about trusting those in authority. I
feel like the president has done several things to earn our trust. And I don't
see men like General Franks as men who are warmongers. They have, I think,
demonstrated themselves as men who have pursued peace especially over the last
12 years. And if we engage in this battle, it will be because they are convinced
it is the last alternative.
KING: Bishop Melvin Talbert in Atlanta. Ecumenical officer of the United
Methodist Church, member of a religious delegation that traveled to Iraq in
December, appears in an anti-war commercial -- here, I want you to watch this
commercial in which Bishop Talbert appears and then we'll ask him a question.
Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If we invade Iraq, there's a United Nations estimate
that says there will be up to a half a million people killed or wounded. Do we
have the right to do that to a country that's done nothing to us?
BISHOP MELVIN TALBERT, UNITED METHODIST CHURCH: No nation under God has
that right. It violates international law. It violates God's law. War only
creates more terrorists and makes a dangerous world for our children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Do you think, Bishop Talbert, that men like President Bush, a
strong Christian, devout Christian and like Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell are
somehow immoral?
TALBERT: No. I wouldn't say they are immoral. I would say that they have
not used all possible choices for bringing about a solution of this without war.
KING: So, in other words, you think there are still other choices
open to them rather than starting a war within ten days?
TALBERT: Yes, I do. I believe we have the United Nations there and rather
than assuming that we have the right to go in unilaterally, to fight this all on
our own, we need to use the apparatus of the United Nations. That's why it
exists. We are the most powerful nation in the world, we can always wait, we
don't have to rush to war and we can use that power in a way of mobilizing
nations to work together rather than pitting ourselves against those nations.
KING: John MacArthur is a pastor, teacher at Grace Community Church, best
selling author and syndicated radio show "Grace to You." He's president of the
Master's College and the Master's Seminary. Is it difficult for a
Christian to support a war? Internally?
JOHN MACARTHUR, GRACE COMM. CHURCH: I think it's always difficult when
you consider the loss of life.
KING: All people are the same.
MACARTHUR: Yes, because every soul is precious.
KING: So the Iraqi child is not more important than the American
child in the eyes of God.
MACARTHUR: Absolutely. But I really find myself on the other side of the
fence from what we've just heard. I don't think we're starting a war. I think a
war [has] already started. The only question is what are we going to [do with] a
war that has already started.
KING: What war did Iraq start?
MACARTHUR: Well the war on America based upon the terrorist attacks on
America.
KING: Oh, 9/11.
MACARTHUR: Sure, 9/11. Which intelligence tells us can be traced in some
measure back to Iraq. It's only a question of how you fight the war. The war has
already started. I don't see a big moral dilemma here at all.
KING: Why is there so much, then, conflict, do you think, in the
Christian community?
MACARTHUR: Maybe we need to go back to the Bible and see what the
Bible actually says. In the Old Testament God tells Israel to go to war against
Amalek, tells Saul to go in there and destroy the Amalekites because they were a
blight on humanity. God told the children of Israel to go into the land, destroy
the Canaanites. The Canaanites used to bury a living baby in a jar in a wall
when they built a house or a building as a offering to the gods. There are wars
of protection. There are wars of just retribution and just punishment and then
there are wars of evil aggression.
KING: Didn't everybody who ever started the war think they were
just? Didn't Hitler think he was just?
MACARTHUR: I don't know any everybody who started a war...
KING: Tell me -- but didn't most people when they start a...
MACARTHUR: Yes, but the verdict on Hitler is not up for discussion.
KING: He thought he was just...I mean when you use it -- that's an
opinion. And actually we feel we're just in our action.
MACARTHUR: Right. But, I mean, what level of justice was Hitler
exercising in massacring six million Jews?
KING: Beats me.
MACARTHUR: Yes, there is no justice there. That isn't a just war by
anybody's definition. It isn't a just thing that the Stalin did to perhaps even
50 million. So I mean it's pretty clear that nobody would come down on the side
of Saddam Hussein as being a paragon of international justice, an example of
righteousness.
KING: More when we continue. We'll be interspersing a lot and we'll be
taking your calls. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The comment I hear the
most from our fellow citizens, regardless of their political party or philosophy
is, Mr. President, I pray for you and your family and so does my family. That's
what I hear. I turn to them without hesitation and say it is the greatest gift
you can give anybody, is to pray on their behalf.
BUSH: I pray for you and your family and so does my family. That's what I
hear. I turn to them without hesitation and say it is the greatest gift you can
give anybody, is to pray on their behalf. I especially feel that because I
believe in prayer. I pray. I pray for strength. I pray for guidance. I pray for
forgiveness. And I pray to offer my thanks for a kind and generous almighty God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: My faith sustains me because I pray daily. I pray for guidance and
wisdom and strength. If we were to commit our troops -- if we were to commit our
troops, I would pray for their safety and I would pray for the safety of
innocent Iraqi lives as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Dr. Jones, is this a moral issue?
JONES: No, I think it's a national issue.
I'm glad we have a president who prays and seeks the face of God when so many
lives are at stake. It must be a frightening thing to be in his shoes. I don't
envy him, and, you know, he wants peace. And sometimes war is the price to pay
for peace. I was reading something General Sherman, the Union general in the
Civil War said. He said "the legitimate object of war is a more perfect peace."
And war is something that the world has always known and always will be known.
You know, there is only two times that I know of that there was not war in the
world, and both of them are in the scripture. The first two chapters of the
Bible before men fell into sin, there was no war in the world, and the last two
chapters when The Lord Jesus comes back and wages war, by the way, against the
nations and becomes the ruler of the world, the next great world ruler, there
will be perfect peace for the next thousand years that he sets himself up as the
ruler of the world and except for those instances, the world his never known
anything, but war is a tragedy -- war is a heartbreak, but it's a part of the
reality of the world.
KING: Backing up what he said, Father, isn't it moral to go in and
take out a despot, a despot who has killed his own people -- killed his own
son-in-law, who has wrought havoc in the region?
MANNING: You know what I believe? I believe that one of the greatest
forces of the downfall of Saddam Hussein is the goodness of what it means to be
a loving, patient caring person. If we come in, and our soldiers...instead of
with bullets and forces, why don't we build hospitals? Why don't we build
bridges? Why don't we build schools? Why don't we bring in a brand new force,
let that force, that passion that the soldiers are exerting now, move it into a
new direction and isn't in the goodness and peace that would come that Saddam
Hussein is going to be threatened? He's going to have to fall because there --
when people are educated --
KING: Max Lucado, would kind acts work?
LUCADO: You know, C.S. Lewis said that to love your enemy doesn't mean
that you never hold him accountable for his deeds. The risk of what the Father
is describing is that evil is going unpunished and who are left vulnerable.
Again, I come back to the fact that the president, I think, has a moral
obligation to protect innocent people here and abroad, but especially here. He's
given supervision over us and he is privy to information that, to be quite
candid, I'm not and my trust must be that if he engages us in this conflict it's
because he sees that we are in threat, which I think we are, we are in danger
and at some point you have to protect the people here from that type of despot
and that danger.
KING: You want to add something?
MANNING: How can -- isn't a democracy, the beauty of a democracy that we
can disagree?
KING: It's what we're doing here tonight.
MANNING: I really have a problem in the direction of the war that the
president is going and I don't feel I'm un-American to say that. I think the
care and the love...
KING: I don't think he was saying you were un-American.
MANNING: The thought can be that. That if you're -- suddenly you say,
Well, you're not following the president, let's just follow that path.
KING: You didn't mean that, did you, Max?
LUCADO: No, not at all.
KING: I mean, you don't have to agree with him.
LUCADO: Absolutely not. In fact, I pray that at the end of day the five
of us would be in the same place and that's on our knees. You know, we all kind
of feel about this a little bit darkly, but -- and I appreciate very much what
the Father is saying and the sympathy and the desire to reach out and love your
enemy is exactly what Christ calls us to do. The question is at what point do
you do so at the risk of innocent people here in the United States?
MANNING: Well, what are the investigators going around doing? They're --
and if a 100 are not enough, let's get 200 in there. Let's get 20,000
investigators, wouldn't that be more reasonable?
KING: I want to bring the Bishop and John MacArthur back into it and
include your phone calls.
KING: This debate is wide among many religions and certainly among the
Christians and we're trying to get the Christian position here and there can be
differing views and we'll be including to your phone calls. We'll go in a
moment.
But John MacArthur, what is the Christian position? is there a Christian
position on this war -- the pending war.
MACARTHUR: Yes, Larry.The singular Christian is Jesus. So the question
needs to be asked, what was Jesus' view? And I think explicitly in scripture you
have a number of things. In the gospel of Luke, Chapter 14 and Verse 31, he
said, When a king goes to war, he is careful to count the cost knowing he has
10,000 soldiers and he's going to go against 20,000 so that he doesn't get in a
battle he might lose.
Jesus uses that illustration to compare a person, counting the cost to become a
Christian, therefore elevates war, makes a noble illustration. In Luke 22:36...
MANNING: That he endorses war?
MACARTUHR: Well, let me finish. He said, "He who has no sword," to his
disciples, "let him sell his garment and buy one," Because he was sending his
apostles out. He knew there would be hostility. He knew there would be
persecution and he knew that could go to a level of some one endeavoring to take
their life. And told them, Get a sword because you may have to protect yourself.
KING: So he endorsed war. He endorsed...
MACARTHUR: He endorsed the fact of protection and just war.
KING: Bishop Talbert, how do you respond to that?
TALBERT: I respond to that: absolutely not. Jesus followed in the
footsteps of the prophets Joel, Michael and Isaiah and they were the prophets of
God in the Old Testament and those prophets challenged nations to beat their
swords and spears into pruning hooks and plow shares and that meant using
investments for war, for feeding children. Jesus himself said to his own
apostles, as he gathered them around the mountain, in Matthew 5. "Blessed are
the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God."
KING: How do we know, depending on what verse anyone reads, you can
back up anything, John? That's the problem as an interviewer, we face. Anyone
can...
MACARTHUR: That's a very typical way that people view the Bible because
there are people who use the Bible to try to prove everything.
KING: Right.
MACARTHUR: What Jesus says is explicit. Jesus said in John 18:36, out of
his own mouth, "If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight." In
other words, he said my kingdom is not of this world. It's a spiritual kingdom,
so we're not engaged in a Holy War. But if someone were coming after us to
attack us and to crucify me and this was an earthly kingdom, my servants would
fight.
KING: But he might answer, the United States, if it gets into this,
is starting this war?
MANNING: Precisely. It's going to get worse and worse. The threat becomes
greater.
MACARTHUR: I don't think we can say the United States is starting this
war. This is not a war of evil aggression. This is a war of protection. This is
a war to protect our people. You know, we once felt strongly about that after
9/11.
TALBERT: You've said that many times and I think it's important for you
to understand that we have a United Nations that's a process for us and we can
use the power that we're talking about to go through the United Nations and use
that as a vehicle for solving conflict as the first option rather than deciding
that we need to move in unilaterally to take this nation.
JONES: Could I say something?
KING: Yes, go ahead, Dr. Jones.
JONES: The United Nations is a threat to our national sovereignty. It
always has been. It always will be. When Jimmy Carter decided to side with Iraq
in the war against Iran, he didn't go and ask the United Nations permission.
When Bill Clinton dropped bombs on Serbia, he didn't ask the United Nations
'permission. When France sent troops recently into the Ivory Coast, France
didn't ask the United Nations' permission. The United Nations is a menace to our
national sovereignty. We have to do what we feel is best in our national
interest and we have leaders who are concerned about the peace and the
well-being of this nation and our borders' safety and using the best judgment
they have if they feel like this nation should go against the terrorist
stronghold and an evil man who is controlling us over there in Iraq. I think, in
loyalty to this nation's leaders, this nation -- the people of this nation
especially the Christians, because we are told to obey every ordinance of man
for the Lord's sake. We need to get behind our nation at this time.
TALBERT: We're not here to defend Saddam Hussein. I don't think -- I'm
not here to defend him at all. The question is how do we resolve the conflict? I
believe that a nation like ours need to use every means possible except war and
war should always be the last resort.
LUCADO: I agree.
KING: Max Lucado, would you agree war is the last resort?
LUCADO: Agree with that 120 percent. War has to be the last resort. My
thinking is, Who knows when it's the last resort, better than those in
authority. According to Romans 13, the government and those in authority are
really ministers appointed by heaven to protect and to punish, and you know, I
agree very much with the concept that we have to let it be the last resort, but
somebody has to make that call.
KING: Hold on. One at a time, gentlemen. John?
MACARTHUR: Can I weigh in on that and just say I agree with that.
Absolutely,. War is a last resort and at that point exactly what has been said
is true. The government exists primarily to punish evildoers and protect
innocent people. It bears not the sword in vain. The Bible says it uses the
sword for that protection and that justice, but it is and always must be the
last resort.
KING: Barstow, California -- start to include some calls.
Hello.
CALLER: Hello, Larry. Larry, my question is -- is on the human shields.
My question is, Larry, when Americans -- I'm hitting on Americans only. When
Americans are over there being a human shield for buildings and that and they
get killed, who's responsible for them or will we just look at it and say they
picked their own destiny and let it be?
KING: Father?
MANNING: I think we bear a big responsibility to them.
KING: We all do when any one dies in war.
MANNING: Sure we do. I think that we should stop bombing just for that
very sake.
KING: Let me get a break and we'll come right back with more,
reintroduce our panel, take more phone calls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We face a continuing threat of terrorist networks that hate the
very thought of people being able to live in freedom, that hate the thought of
the fact that in this great country we can worship the almighty God the way we
see fit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Lets reintroduce our panel in Saginaw, Michigan, Dr. Bob Jones,
President of Bob Jones University. In San Antonio, Max Lucado, his latest book
"A Love Worth Giving." In Los Angeles, Father Michael Manning , Roman Catholic
priest, Society of the Divine Word. In Los Angeles, John MacArthur, pastor,
teacher, best selling author and host of his own radio show, "Grace to You." And
in Atlanta Bishop Melvin Talbert, ecumenical officer of the United Methodist
Church Council of Bishops.
New York City, hello?
CALLER: Hello. I'm on.
KING: Go ahead.
CALLER: My question is with absolutely no proof linking 9/11 with Saddam
Hussein and also, we don't even have proof that they possess any weapons of mass
destruction outside of this administration's word, why would this administration
think that God is possibly sanctioning the senseless slaughter of tens of
thousands of innocent lives, both American, Iraq and Kuala?
KING: Max?
LUCADO: Why would the administration lie to us? I would agree if the
administration is misleading us that this would be an inappropriate action. I
haven't seen anything myself. I'm not privy to any inside information but you
have to trust somebody.
MANNING: Powell made this big thing at the United Nations. He was going
to reveal what it was and I listened to it and I found I'm not convinced.
KING: Are you convinced there are weapons of mass destruction there?
MANNING: No.
KING: Not at all?
MANNING: No. I don't know. That's my worry. Let's send in more
investigators. Let's find out what it is rather than send soldiers.
KING: Port Richie, Florida, hello?
CALLER: Hi, Larry. I have to agree with Dr. Jones and everything he has
said. My question it your panel is do they think Hussein believes in religion or
actually cares about prayer when he kills members of his own family and
father...
KING: He says he pray, John MacArthur.
MACARTHUR: Saddam Hussein. I'm sure he does.
KING: He prays five times a day.
KING: He believes right. He must be praying to something.
MACARTHUR: Well, it's the wrong God unfortunately. There is only one true and
living God, and that's the God of the scripture. The God and Father of our Lord
Jesus Christ. And if you aren't praying to that God, you are praying to no one.
KING: He doesn't believe that.
KING: How do you deal with that? I mean, how do you deal with that?
His belief may be as strong as your belief.
MACARTHUR: You could believe that you could fly and jump off a five-story
building. It doesn't make it real. Unfortunately, false religion is the ultimate
deception.
KING: Is the Muslim world all false?
MACARTHUR: Well, the theology of Islam is false. It's the wrong God.
It's the wrong view of Christ.
KING: When they hear that, don't they get that as an anti-American
thought?
MACARTHUR: It has nothing to do with America. I would say if they were
French. It has nothing to do with America.
KING: They think yours is the wrong God.
MACARTHUR: I see what you are saying, Well, they, do. But there has to be
truth and untruth, and once you've established the truth and I think the word of
God has been established as true, I think it can hold up under the most intense
scrutiny and other books do not.
KING: Bishop, don't you believe, Bishop Talbert, that Christianity
is the right path?
TALBERT: I do believe for Christians, but we're not here to settle which
religion is right. That settle -- that dispute belongs to God. We are here to
practice what we preach.
KING: Do you believe your religion is right?
TALBERT: Yes I do.
KING: Or else why believe it.
TALBERT: That is right.
KING: So therefore the other religions have to be wrong.
TALBERT: No, I don't say that at all.
KING: If you believe your religion is right. The other religions
are wrong.
TALBERT: I believe my God is large enough to be inclusive of all human
beings who were created in God's image and that includes those religions that
are not Christian.
MACARTHUR: I want to ask a question. Why did Jesus say -- why did Paul
say, if any man preaches any other Christ than the true Jesus Christ, let him be
a cursed. Let him be anathema. Why does the Bible say neither is their salvation
in any other name than Jesus Christ. Why does the scripture condemn anyone who
rejects Jesus Christ and the gospel of Christ? Why is the message so exclusive?
TALBERT: For me, salvation in Jesus Christ is the way, and what I try to
do as a Christian is to live that example. My responsibility is not to convert
all other religions, but to live the Christian faith in the face of those
religions. Are you going to say that my -- our friend on the show tonight who is
Jewish is on the wrong path? That's God's choice. That's God's judgment, not
mine.
KING: Bellingham, Massachusetts. Hello.
CALLER: Yes, what I'd like to say is that -- listening especially the
last few moments to what's being said is -- I feel as though what's going on the
panel as a matter of fact is a war within itself. A religious war. I don't want
or like war, however, I do trust the wisdom of our president, but what I'd like.
KING: What's your question, dear.
CALLER: What I'd like to ask the bishop as well as the father is, why
according to what they're doing in their belief now with regard to the war,
didn't they take a stand when Bill Clinton went after Milosevic? Why didn't the
Catholic Church take a stand when Hitler persecuted countless number of Jews and
he wasn't even excommunicated from the Catholic Church? I just find such
hypocrisy here that I believe that this is coming out after Bill Clinton, and
this is a Christian war on the panel tonight. It's not a war -- it's not words
of a war against what's right and wrong and hurting people.
KING: The subject is Christians debating it, but Father Manning, you
going to comment?
MANNING: I'm in no way going to say that it was OK to look the other ways
when Jews were taken off from Rome. Pope Pius should have done something about
that and that's to the shame of what happened. But that doesn't mean that all of
a sudden if that was true that I disregard what I believe is right right now. We
shouldn't be going into a war. We should wait until things really get clear. We
can use many other means. And as Pope John Paul II had said "war is the defeat
for humanity."
KING: Laceiba, Honduras, hello.
CALLER: Hello. Look, glad to be on the show. Considering the fact that the
Bible is riddled with violence from the old into the New Testament, what has
happened to the concept of love, compassion and turn the other cheek?
KING: Dr. Jones, fair question. What happened to turn the other cheek?
JONES: Very fair question. If I have a personal enemy the Bible tells me
that I should turn the other cheek to that enemy. I should suffer their reproach
and the rebuke of men without retaliation, but the Bible also says as Max has
already talked to us from Romans 13, the Bible says that the government does not
bear the sword in vain. God gives to nations the right to wage war. And God says
these people are our ministers for good against evil and for the protection of
that which is good. And the Bible nowhere condemns war, nor does the Bible
promote war. War is a product of perverse, sinful human nature. And as long as
man's nature is apart from Christ, there's going to be war because the war is in
man's heart. Nobody can blame the Bible for war or could blame Christians for
war. Christians aren't for war. I'm not for war, but man's heart is for war and
until that issue is addressed in Jesus Christ, the man is transformed through
the blood of Christ and made into a new creature, he's going to be a war
mongering creature. And there will be evil people like Saddam Hussein who want
to destroy others and harm others. And good people, decent people, peaceful
loving people should rise up against those despots and say we don't like this
kind of war mongering in our world. And those who are for peace must engage the
enemy and do everything possible to bring the despots to their knees.
KING: Berlin, Germany, hello?
CALLER: Hello. Good afternoon, good morning, good evening. I don't know what
the time is there.
KING: We're in all time zones. Go ahead.
CALLER: My question is to the panel, the whole panel. What are their
views about Islam? Is it a terrorist religion or maybe if they unite there is no
other super power, but Islam -- because Islam -- sorry, and that's what U.S.
don't want. And that's why they're going to the different parts of the world
where Islam is...
KING: Fair question. Max, what is your view of Islam?
LUCADO: Well, I guess it depends on if he's asking it from a political or
religious point of view.
KING: I guess from religious.
LUCADO: Religious point of view, it is a different approach to God than
the Christian approach to God. My understanding as a Christian is that we're
saved by what Christ did for us whereas the Islamic faith we're saved by what we
do for God. So you've got two different angles, two different approaches to God.
I prefer to trust God to save me than to depend on my words to save myself.
KING: But do you think, Bishop Talbert, that these differing opinions are
leading to lots of conflict in the world?
TALBERT: I believe they're leading for a lot of conflicts because we do
not open ourselves to each other and learn and grow. I have talked with Muslim
leaders. They are -- the ones that I have met are very fine people. They are on
their way just as certain as I'm on my way. And what we need to do is to be
tolerant with each other and not assume that our way is the only way.
KING: John MacArthur, you believe that Muslim people, the Islamic people
are wrong. Their beliefs are wrong.
MACARTHUR: That's right. And this is not some personal belief of mine.
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life..."
KING: Yes, but if they don't believe that...
MACARTHUR: If they don't believe that, no man comes to the Father but by
me.
KING: You must believe that, too, Father.
MANNING: I believe very much that the love of God is strong. Jesus -- Jesus
loves all people. Jesus died for all people and I can't imagine...
KING: He died for the Islamic, too?
MANNING: Of course he did. Of course he did. And he loves them with a
passion.
KING: You believe that, too, right?
MACARTHUR: Well, I believe God loves his creatures, his creations.
MACARTHUR: But in the end he's going to condemn to an eternal hell all
those who reject his son Jesus Christ.
MANNING: And he rejoices, and Jesus rejoices...
KING: All of them?
MACARTHUR: All who reject his son Jesus Christ, the Bible says, are condemned
to eternal punishment.
MANNING: Jesus rejoices when his father is glorified. And when a Muslim
or Jew glorifies the father I can't imagine Jesus coming and saying, Oh, well.
When are you going to look at me? The joy of Jesus is the glorification of God.
KING: Anaheim, hello? Anaheim, are you there?
CALLER: Yes, I'm here.
KING: Go ahead.
CALLER: Hi, my question is for the entire panel. It seems that most
Christians in the United States support the president, support the war in Iraq.
So do Christian leaders in the United States. It also seems that many Christians
in Europe, including the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Pope, don't really
support the United States, don't really support the war in Iraq. How do we as
Christians -- what do we do with that? How do we process that? How do we
reconcile that chasm?
KING: Fair question, John, and we'll go around. What do they do?
Christian leaders in other parts of the world opposed.
MACARTHUR: Yes, again, you know, Christian leaders giving their opinion
or the official opinion of their institution or their denomination doesn't carry
any real weight when it comes to Christianity.
KING: But he's asking as a Christian what does he do if two esteemed
Christian leaders, Archbishop of Canterbury and you.
MACARTHUR: Yes, very simple go back to the Word of God, compare
everything with what the Bible says.
KING: And what if his conclusion is the war is wrong?
MACARTHUR: I don't think it's that difficult. Well, I can't say whether
this war is right or wrong nationally or whatever. All I can is say is God
instituted government to carry a sword to protect the innocent people and to
punish the evildoers.
KING: But you don't know if it applies to this war.
MACARTHUR: Well, you know, I don't have that information and I don't need
to weigh in on that because I'm not giving that information.
MANNING: I agree completely. I'm not against an army. I'm not against
police. I think that's a God given right to give us security and peace. But I
share with him deep, deep questions and doubts as to whether or not this is
really a war situation.
MACARTHUR: And I think where I come in on that is I've got to trust my
president and his cabinet and intelligence and military people. George Bush
doesn't want to throw away life.
KING: What do you trust, Dr. Jones, if great Christian leaders
around the world disagree?
JONES: Well, as to this war, and I totally agree with what John has just
said, is to this war there is no Biblical direction for any of us to say whether
it is of God or it isn't of a God. No one can approach any war on that basis.
And there is perfect reason to have legitimate disagreement, but the issue that
we can't disagree on is the authority of the Bible, the exclusivity of the
Savior, Jesus Christ, who alone can say, there's no under name under
heaven, given among man whereby we must be saved.
And I do think we have to agree that moral issues must be addressed in this
world, and crime and bombing and terrorism are unjust and immoral. And where
innocent people are threatened by terrorism, terrorism must be addressed. And
our government is trying to do that for the good of the whole world, not just
for the good of America, because these terrorists are a threat to everybody on
the face of the earth.
KING: Charlotte, North Carolina...
JONES: The people of this world ought to be glad we have a president like
we have.
TALBERT: Larry, you didn't give me a chance to chime in on that.
KING: All right, go ahead, Bishop.
TALBERT: Yes, this president, I'd like to trust him, but I question the
kind of advice that he's getting from the religious community. He has not seen
fit to receive a delegation of his own bishops. And if he's a member of the
United Methodist Church, seemingly he would seek the counsel of the bishops of
his church.
KING: He has not agreed to see them?
TALBERT: He has not agreed to see us. He has not agreed to see 40
religious leaders who wrote letters to him saying give us an audience to talk to
you about the debate that's going on in this nation about this war.
KING: He met the emissary of the pope, though.
MANNING: Yes, Pio Laghi.
KING: Charlotte, North Carolina, hello?
CALLER: Yes, Larry, I have a question for the panel here. I actually I
have a comment, suggestion and recommendation.
The comment I have is we are supposed to be the peacemakers if we're the ones
that truly inherit the kingdom of God. And the suggestion I have with this
potential war is paramount for us to find a solution to what's going on over
there in the Middle East. And the suggestion I would like to make is to remove
Saddam Hussein from power legitimately, try him for the war crimes that he
committed 12 years ago...
KING: How do you get him? How do you get him, sir?
CALLER: How do you get him?
KING: Yes.
CALLER: Through a legitimate international court through United Nations.
KING: Do you think that is possible? To get him legitimately?
MANNING: Well, I think the only way is hemming him in as we're doing with
these people that are investigators. Let's keep pushing him back. Let's keep
pushing him on.
KING: Let's take a break and come back with some more moments and
more phone calls. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Religious faith not only comforts, it challenges. Faith teaches
that every person is equal in God's sight, and must be treated with equal
dignity here on Earth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back. Geneva, Switzerland, hello?
CALLER: Hello, Mr. Larry.
KING: Yes?
CALLER: Please as Mr. Bush, he insists that the Muslim community should
separate, the jihad which is the religion call for defend their country against
the enemy, separated from the region and from even their culture.
KING: Right.
CALLER: Why now some bureaucratic church -- insist that Christian or
Christianity encouraged this invasion to Iraq.
KING: What's the question, sir? You're not being clear and I'm running out
of time. What's the question?
CALLER: OK. The question, Mr. Bush encouraged the Muslim community after
the 11th of September to separate the...
KING: Their faith. Right. What's the question? What's the question?
CALLER: Why is this bureaucratic chance which Mr. -- .
KING: OK. Why is Bush -- I don't understand the question, but why
is Bush calling Christians to go to war?
MACARTHUR: Let me respond to that. It is important to say this is not a
Christian war. Whether George Bush sends the American troops into war has
nothing to do with Christianity. I has nothing to do with the Bible. It has
nothing to do with him being a Christian.
KING: But he talks about praying.
MACARTHUR: Well, he prays because he [sees] the implications of it. He's
not saying I'm praying and God's telling me to go to war. I think he's praying
as any Christian would, that he doesn't have to do this. Than lives will be
spared. That wisdom would be granted. But there is no Biblical mandate or divine
mandate to go to any war. This is a matter of wisdom on the part of leaders.
KING: He was also clear to not blame Muslims for 9/11.
MACARTHUR: And I don't think you can blame them all.
MANNING: It's scary, isn't it? That all of this is happening from a
Christian country and the implication is that this is what Jesus wants?
KING: Apex, North Carolina -- I'm sorry. Go ahead.
CALLER: Hello, Larry?
KING: Yes, go ahead.
CALLER: My question is to all of the panel. My question is do we really
feel like that as a nation we have according to what the scriptures say to us,
have we really repented as a nation? When I look at what happened September 11,
I noted that we called Billy Graham, one of our popular religious leaders to the
nation and it was a time of prayer. But it seems to me that it's been a token
time of repentance, that we really haven't looked at it ourselves. And it seems
that as a nation we have really pursued what I would say is like an empire
building status and we...
KING: Do you agree with that father?
MANNING: Think so. We've got to be very, very careful we don't get into a
new colonialism. And this is what happened. We are going to take control in
order to have resources of a nation.
KING: You fear that, Dr. Jones?
JONES: No, I don't subscribe to that at all. We're going over there to
try to make our borders safe and the whole world safer. We're not going to
occupy Iraq.
KING: Max do you fear it?
LUCADO: I think what the caller is saying: that we have to be careful and
not think that we are righteous or smug. We do, we have a lot of mistakes
ourselves that we need to deal with. And I think he's making a good point.
KING: Don't you agree with that, John?
MACARTHUR: Absolutely. We're getting back to the blurry line here. This
is not about Christianity. This is not about the Bible. This is about
international issues.
KING: Christian leaders are divided.
MACARTHUR: Just happens that George Bush is a Christian. This is not a
Christian war. Yes, he's a Christian, so he talks to the Lord about the
[concerns] of his life. This is not about Christianity. It's not tied to
national repentance or national revival or any spiritual issue in our country.
KING: What do you think is going to happen, bishop?
TALBERT: I, unfortunately, I believe that the people in the Muslim world
will see the -- a war led by the person from America as a Christian crusade.
Having been to the Middle East and talked to the religious leaders there, they
are very fearful that that's the way it's going to be read. And it's going to
push the feeling of the people from the moderate to the more radical leaders in
the Muslim world.
KING: I'm running out of time. I'm running out of time.
MACARTHUR: What are the people in Iraq who are Muslims going to think
when they are liberated from Saddam Hussein?
KING: All right. We've got to do lots more on this. We thank Dr. Bob
Jones, Max Lucado, Father Michael Manning, John MacArthur and Bishop Melvin
Talbert and I'll be back to tell you about tomorrow night right after this.
This transcript was edited from CNN's original "rushed" transcript of the show.
For the latest complete transcript of the entire Larry King Live show on March
11, 2003,
go to:
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0303/11/lkl.00.html
Added to Bible Bulletin Board's "MacArthur's Collection" by:
Tony Capoccia
Bible Bulletin Board
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